Read My Mind

Elliot Rodger and The Nice Guy Syndrome

by Dr. Robert Glover on May 27th, 2014.     30 comments

elliot-roger-blogWithin hours of Elliot Rodger’s violent rampage in Santa Barbara, my inbox began to fill up with email from self-professed “Nice Guys” commenting on the tragedy. Short of the homicidal rage, many could relate to aspects of Rodger’s situation.
As I present in my book, No More Mr. Nice Guy (Running Press, 2003), Nice Guys are men who consciously or unconsciously believe they are somehow fundamentally flawed and have to become what other people want them to be (“nice”), in order to be loved and liked and get their needs met.
The Nice Guy Syndrome
In his YouTube rants, Rodger calls himself the “perfect guy” and a “supreme gentleman.” When his parents alerted the police to his social-media posts, the authorities found him to be a “perfectly polite, kind and wonderful human.”
Elevated views of self, polite behavior, social isolation, and difficulty connecting deeply are common traits among the Nice Guys with whom I work. Due to inaccurately internalized beliefs about childhood and adolescent events, they tend to overcompensate for their feelings of inferiority.
Elliot Rodger seems to reflect this kind of Nice Guy mentality.
Covert Contracts
Nice Guys seek approval and validation through what I call “covert contracts.” Typical covert contracts are three-fold:

If I am a good guy, then people will like me and love me (and people I desire will desire me).

2. If I meet other people’s needs without their having to ask, then they will meet my needs without my having to ask.

3. If I do everything right, then I will have a smooth, problem-free life.
However, these don’t work for a number of reasons.
First, the Nice Guy’s covert contracts are grounded in a deep emotional belief of not being good enough, and the Nice Guy himself is often unconscious of them or their source.
Second, others typically do not realize these contracts exist and are often surprised when the Nice Guy lashes out at their failure to keep their end of the deal.
Third, covert contracts are basically a form of magical thinking that don’t reflect reality.
Typically, over time, as Nice Guys hide their wants and needs from others and seek approval through their covert contracts, their rage and resentment build. And these dark emotions always find a way out, most commonly through manipulation, passive-aggressive behavior, and “victim pukes.”
Most Nice Guys compartmentalize these behaviors while holding on to the conviction that they are “one of the nicest guys you will ever meet.”
As I state in my book, for these and many other reasons, no matter how well meaning and sincere Nice Guys might be, they are often anything but “nice.”
When Nice Guys fail to get their needs met, and when people around them fail to appreciate, validate, or desire them in ways they believe they deserve, the only option these men see is to try harder, doing more of the same. As a result, the Nice Guy Syndrome perpetuates their feelings of helplessness, frustration, resentment, and worthlessness.
In the aftermath of the Santa Barbara tragedy, it is easy to see many parallels between Elliot Rodger’s YouTube rants, written manifesto, and core Nice Guy characteristics. Thus, the many emails I have received.
Rodger proclaimed himself to be a “perfect guy” and a “supreme gentleman,” whom women overlooked for “obnoxious brutes.” He complained of being a virgin who had never been kissed and was constantly rejected by women.  To “all those girls I’ve desired so much,” he says, “you will finally see that I am the superior one, the true alpha male.
“I've wanted love, affection, adoration. You think I’m unworthy of it. That's a crime that can never be forgiven.”
Like many Nice Guys, Rodger believed he was entitled to attention, affection, and sex from the women he desired. And since he believed he was such a “supreme gentlemen,” women should also see this and choose him over lesser men.
Not only can the typical Nice Guy not figure out why this paradigm doesn’t work for getting women and sex, they see no alternative approach. They’ve followed the rules, so everyone else should, too!
Rage and Resentment toward Women
It is common for the men I work with to objectify women – especially attractive women – and see them as the ultimate validation of their worth. When such women don’t desire them back, they come to see these once-glorified objects as terrible creatures who are willfully and spitefully withholding the key to their happiness. I refer to these women as “Key-Holding Goddesses.”
Media and easy access to online porn only fuel this glorification of women as objects of desire. Many Nice Guys have struggled since adolescence with porn obsession.
Many also have difficulty connecting with and dating the kind of women they desire. They put attractive women on a pedestal and then either avoid talking to them (which of course significantly decreases the possibility of these women even knowing they exist) or try to befriend and be nice to them. These men hope such women will eventually see what a great catch they are (especially compared to the “jerks” attractive women seem more inclined to choose).
Because Nice Guys put attractive women on a pedestal and crave their approval, they tend to feel rage and resentment when they believe they’ve kept their end of the covert contract (being “nice” and different from other men), while the women have failed to keep theirs.
It is important to note that Nice Guys themselves are both player and “score keeper” in this game. They assume that, since they do nice things, aren’t like other “bad” men, and have their own unique goodness, they have kept their side of their covert contracts. When the other team (attractive women) fail to play by the rules, Nice Guys wait helplessly for the giant referee in the sky to blow his whistle and impose a penalty. Elliot Rodger decided to play ref himself.
Many Nice Guys covertly or overtly resent women – especially women who seem to have high social status just for having won the genetic lottery. They obsess about, “crush” on, and then rage at these “sexual celebrities.”
There is a paradox here that most Nice Guys (and men in general) fail to get. It is men who put attractive women on pedestals and give them this one-dimensional value and status. And then it is these same men who resent the Key-Holding Goddesses for their status – and perhaps their sense of entitlement and lack of accountability.
Elliot Rodger manifested this dynamic, a family representative revealed that Rodger didn’t have a lot of friends, had trouble making friends, and didn’t have any girlfriends.
Here is how Rodger expressed his own rage toward women in his videos and written manifesto: “On the day of retribution, I am going to enter the hottest sorority house at UCSB, and I will slaughter every single spoiled, stuck-up, blond slut I see inside there.” 

Rodger said in his final video, “I will be a god compared to you. You will all be animals. You are animals, and I will slaughter you like animals. I hate all of you. Humanity is a disgusting, wretched, depraved species.
“You think I’m unworthy of you. That’s a crime I can never get over. If I can’t have you girls, I will destroy you. You denied me a happy life, and in turn I will deny all of you life. It’s only fair.
“All of you girls who rejected me, looked down upon me, you know, treated me like scum while you gave yourselves to other men ... I hate all of you. I can’t wait to give you exactly what you deserve — annihilation.”
Rodger’s vengeful and homicidal rants represent a Nice Guy “victim puke” on steroids.
Pick Up
Apparently, Elliot Rodger’s rage and resentment weren’t reserved just for women. He also seemed to feel victimized by pickup artists and the online pickup community. He reportedly was active in an online anti-PUA forum,
I have often stated that I have mixed feelings about the pickup community. Many of their principles and techniques “work” to get the attention of women and their coaching and boot camps can help some men get over their anxiety and insecurity and learn how to approach and connect with women.
On the other hand, many pickup coaches and gurus prey on insecure, vulnerable men, selling them magic and making them more obsessed with and rageful toward attractive women. They target the most attractive women and fan the insecure narcissism of “scoring” as many prizes as possible. Meanwhile, these coaches and gurus take their disciples’ money and turn them into nothing more than “geeks with techniques.”
The Blame
Following a tragedy like this in Santa Barbara, it is easy to speculate and cast blame. Here are a few easy candidates:
A Culture That Glorifies Violence. Yes, Elliot Rodger grew up in a society permeated with violence in television, movies, video games, and the media. We can’t get enough of it. But violent culture isn’t the answer.
The Internet, Blogosphere, and Social Media. Online forums, chat rooms, and blogs provide soapboxes from which any jack wagon can stir things up – even spread hate and lies – and feel powerful. But we can’t blame the internet.
Sensationalism of Mainstream Media. I’ve often said that too much of mainstream media aims at turning idiots and criminals into heroes and household names. I have no doubt that Rodger will be on the cover of People (perhaps even Rolling Stone) within days. But we can’t lay Santa Barbara at the media’s doorstep.
Pick-Up Artists. As I’ve said, pickup coaches and gurus prey on the insecure and vulnerable, and when the magic tricks fail to make attractive women putty in their hands, these men often feel even more helpless and disillusioned. But it’s not the PUAs’ fault.
The Porn Industry. I have no idea if Rodger was into porn, so I won’t even speculate. But even though a few talking heads have tried to explain this tragedy by pointing at socially accepted violence toward women in pornography, we can’t blame porn.
Culturally Accepted Misogyny. Rodger’s anti-female rants have brought the feminists out of the woodwork. Even though Rodger is obviously homicidally rageful at women, as I write this, the body count includes more men than women. We can’t put this on misogyny.
Guns. I’m a proponent of saner gun laws in the US, but gun-control activists can’t claim this one. Rodger stabbed three men in his apartment before his shooting rampage and rammed people with his car. Maybe we should ban sharp objects and cars too, but we can’t solely blame our insane gun laws.
Privilege and Entitlement. I know nothing about Rodger’s childhood or family other than that his father is a Hollywood director, and he was driving a BMW in his videos and shooting rampage. But entitlement isn’t the villain either.
The Answer?
If we are looking for the answer to why a privileged 22-year-old man would do something so irrational and seemingly insane, it is simply this: what Elliot Rodger did was irrational and insane.
I know this isn’t an easy or sexy answer, but killing many innocent people, taking one’s own life, and broadcasting the plan over social media are all signs of a broken brain.

Elliot Roger was mentally Ill.
I didn’t know him, and I’m in no position to diagnose, but here is what I do know.
First, I have worked with countless men who express many of Elliot Rodger’s beliefs and frustrations, yet none of them has been homicidal. While these men may have irrational and dysfunctional beliefs about the world, their minds don’t convince them it makes sense to go on a shooting rampage.
Second, any time it does makes sense to a person’s mind to enter a school, a theater, a library, a post office, or a sorority house and start randomly killing innocent people, this is mental illness. No other conclusion can be drawn, no matter how badly we might want to mount our own personal soapboxes following such an inexplicable tragedy.
Sane minds may feel victimized, even plot fantasy revenge, but they don’t cross certain lines. Mentally ill minds don’t realize how far they have crossed over the line.
I don’t have any greater answer. But as a society, we have to take mental illness seriously and quit blaming straw men we can so easily prop up and knock down.
We still know so little about the human brain and why it breaks, but it is worth our time and financial investment to learn all we can, help mentally disturbed people like Elliot Rodger, and prevent similar tragedies.
Perhaps people with the power to make a difference will stop focusing on all the wrong issues and make an investment in finding answers to the one that matters most.
Robert A. Glover, Ph.D.

Robert Glover's Signature

Topics: Elliot Rodger Isla Vista Mental Illness Misogyny Nice Guy Nice Guy Syndrome Rage at Women Santa Barbara


jeff says ...
With all due respect, Dr. Glover, this young man was psychotic. Just looking at his videos will show you that. There is something about his affect and his language that is off. He was prescribed Risperdal but was noncompliant. It's believed that he did not ever approach any women. He has more in common with the Virginia Tech shooter than with any Nice Guy, or any PUA.
David says ...
Whether he was psychotic or not, he spoke for many Nice Guys who struggle with self limiting beliefs and are frustrated with why so many women they desire only like jerks or bad boys. Of course he never approached the women he desired. He didn't believe he deserved them.
Lamont says ...
Great article Dr. Glover I think you hit it head on. Yes he had some nice guy tendencies but he was mentally ill and it was very apparent. AS I am going through my own journey I realize the importance of taking responsibility and getting my own needs and wants met. Thanks for this article and all the work you do to help us out.
Alex D says ...
"This man had a broken brain." This is so true. I've studied a lot about the brain through some of your courses, videos, books, and a ton of other research. I've dealt with a lot of irrationality, anxiety, and depression, and once I started to take care of my health through a variety of means it gradually all went away. I use a combination of exercise, nutrition, supplementation, meditation, breathing techniques, and cognitive reframing. Gradually, I "got better" and my brain started to work again.

When I see stories like this, I think of a negative feedback loop. Something got "stuck" in his head when he was younger, some belief or belief system, which made it difficult or impossible to meet his own needs. And what happens when you can't even meet some of your basic needs? More anger and frustration. More negative beliefs get calcified into the mind. Then where do you channel all these negative emotions? We aren't really taught how to deal with these toxic emotions in a healthy way. At some point, you have a boiling cauldron of pain, hate, and resentment. So much, that it's channeled into completely irrational thoughts, and then actions.

What happened with him is a "hardware" and "software" issue. Take a look at the book "Ultramind Solution" by Mark Hyman. He talks about how a lot of mental disorders (anxiety, depression, ADD, OCD) can be fixed with getting the brain back in balance through diet, supplementation, and lifestyle changes.

If somebody could have stepped in to help Elliot end this negative feedback loop, it wouldn't have happened. When you're as far down the rabbit hole as Elliot, you lose touch with reality. These people that do these crazy things, to me, aren't winning at life and aren't happy for whatever reason. Maybe their brain doesn't work anymore because it's not getting a nutrient it needs, or they're gluten intolerant, or years of anxiety and the cortisol pumping through their body and brain have destroyed their pre-frontal cortex and ability to function in the world. People that are mentally healthy will never understand this though.

It's tragic to see this shit, as I look at this and see something that could have easily been prevented. Our quick-fix "outside-first" culture really isn't looking at this issues and the real culprits properly, like you say in your post Robert.

Thanks for taking the time to write this Robert. It's people like you that are fighting on the front lines against all the lies out there.
NightOwler says ...
@Jeff Not sure if you read the whole post but Dr Glover clearly says that it "seems" like he has NGS tendencies but ultimately the guy was mentally ill and psychotic.

Even though this guy sounds like he has some NGS tendencies ultimately he was mentally ill and even if he had "gotten women" or had a girlfriend something else terrible surely would have happened.
Carlo says ...
My sincere compliments for this article. It made me feel better to read some true compassion.

I am not different from Elliot, just luckier.
Will says ...

I don't think Elliot spoke for those with the nice guy syndrome. Elliot was ill and could not understand how wrong his beliefs were; whereas, nice guys can understand that their beliefs about women are wrong and change them. I have been frustrated with dating in the past, and I still am at times. I have learned to develop a great cake of a life and not allow the approval of women dictate how I feel about myself. It's amazing how freeing it is not to worry about this approval. I lost my virginity at 24 years old. There's nothing wrong with me or any of the women that weren't interested in me. I'm proud of where I have come. If I can do it, so can you.
spinit1 says ...
Many thanks for the email Robert (I'm an on line member). You hit all the markers. My only comment relates to "YouTube" and the media which creates (and offers) venues to young "insane" humans as Elliot. These media outlets create feeding frenzies for a population which has ignored the needs of the mentally ill. Yes the brain is a beautiful organ (I'm a neurological nurse) but so much remains to be discovered. Tipper Gore, you may recall was going to devote her energies to mental health needs but that got lost somewhere? My wish is that many (men and women) spend the time to discover you and your "Nice Guy" website.
Tenderoni says ...
With all due respect Dr. Glover, I find this article disturbing. Drawing parallels between "nice guy syndrome" and Elliot Rodger may have serious unintended consequences for unassuming "nice guys" who frequent your website. While I'll think your intentions are good, the take away message for me was that I might have something in common with a mass murderer. My fear and anxiety went up and for a moment I felt a desperation come over me. For a moment, I wanted to try even harder to "recover". Then I realized that my identifying as a "nice guy" is only fueling my feelings of shame, guilt and depression. I feel that the "nice guy syndrome" recovery has become a cult, not unlike the other 12 step recovery programs from which you seem to draw several of your recovery techniques. As they say in the Shark Tank, "for that reason I'm out".
Slim says ...
Doctor, I wish you had hit this point a little harder:

"And then it is these same men who resent the Key-Holding Goddesses for their status – and perhaps their sense of entitlement and lack of accountability."

The careful wording and indirect grammar almost seem Nice Guy. But, the post is about the tragedy -- not the feminist response to the tragedy.

I admire your restraint and thoughtful commentary at a time when many seem to have lost their sense of decency in the rush to promote their personal world view.
Brocoolseph says ...
When a person's needs are pressed on enough, they'll crack in some sort. When a person doesn't have water, they eventually die of thirst. A person placed in solitary confinement is mentally affected by the loneliness. A man given a life sentence in prison sometimes "becomes gay" with other inmate in order to satisfy their sexual needs without to females. A man emasculated by society and not given proper social training may eventually crack and shoot up a school. Or maybe they'll turn their pain and frustration inward and become frustrated nice guys like most of us here.

Nobody wants to admit it, but it's idiotic at best and dangerously irresponsible at worst to keep simply writing off these instances as caused by guys that are psychopaths and not analyze the bigger picture that is producing these psychopaths. Emasculated men will read this as misogynistic, but a society that not only neglects but demeans male need in favor of feminism and "equal" (special) rights for females will keep producing more and more nice guys. And every once in a while they'll shoot up a school. It's no coincidence these past few decades have seen a ridiculous amount of public shootings.

The answer? Stop pretending feminism is anything less than a huge problem for our society. Men need to learn how to get their needs met. Women need men in charge of them to attract them and provide them with security. Fathers need to raise functional sons and daughters.

There is a little bit of Eliot Rodger in all of us. We're all nice guys. Stop pretending this is a unique individual. We all suffer/have suffered from the same issues as Eliot. Start changing your nice guy and start changing your mindset. Dr. Glover's wisdom is a good start. I also train at Manhood Academy.
RufWarrior says ...
Thanks Dr. Glover for posting. I thought of the similarities a lot but hesitated to post on the OSG for the same reason you got all the comments here. I appreciate your analysis.
Matt Chociej says ...
Great post, Robert! You hit the nail on the head.
Yuri says ...
Just a small note.
It is not only about nice guy syndrom.
Although Robert mentions some of the Nice Guy symptoms there are many thing in guy's head that is not only about this syndrom.
Like Robert says: "We still know so little about the human brain"
MauriceL. says ...
I think Alice Miller said it best:

"In order not to die, all mistreated children must totally repress the mistreatment, deprivation, and bewilderment they have undergone because otherwise the child's organism wouldn't be able to cope with the magnitude of the pain suffered. Only as adults do they have other possibilities for dealing with their feelings. If they don't make use of these possibilities, then what was once the life-saving function of repression can be transformed Into a dangerous destructive, and self-destructive force. In the careers of despots such as Hitler and Stalin, their suppressed fantasies of revenge can lead to indescribable atrocities. This phenomenon doesn't exist anywhere in the entire animal kingdom, for no animal is trained by its parents to deny its nature completely in order to become a "well-behaved" animal - only human beings act In such a destructive way. According to the reports of Nazi criminals (and also of soldiers who volunteered to fight in Vietnam), their unconscious programming to be violent began in every case with a brutal upbringing that demanded absolute obedience and expressed total contempt for the child. I know of no example of this which is so well-documented and which demonstrates so clearly the consequences of the psychological murder of children - bringing along with it a form of collective blindness - than the fateful success of Adolf Hitler.

The Führer once told his secretary that during one of the regular beatings given him by his father he was able to stop crying, to feel nothing, and even to count the thirty-two blows he received."

SFB says ...
This certainly rang some bells for me. One thing not mentioned is how attractive women tend to use "nice guys" for their own personal gain. This is not mentioned in the information coming out regarding Elliot Rodgers----perhaps he did not get that far with women. Had he achieved some minimal success perhaps he would have been like a rat on a perpetual wheel getting intermittent rewards, getting just enough reward to keep on going but never enough to be satisfied. When one is in that cycle, as a lot of us are, we just keep on going.
Also not mentioned is the harrassment "nice guys" get from other men for "not scoring". He undoubtedly experienced this as we all have at some point in out lives.
And finally, I disagree with Dr. Glover that "nice guys" are really not all that nice. You can be respected by many people for being a very nice person, and should you be celebate, you will be an even nicer person to those women who are ambivalent about sex-----but you better not mention your celebacy to other men
Ron S. says ...
Great Message, right to the point.
Well Done doc.
Nori says ...
Surely he was mentally ill. The question is, are we, NG, ill too? Is it a question of quality or only a difference of grade? I think I am not so resentful toward women because I feel I do not deserve to be loved (I'm so bad NG). And, of course, I know I am a NG, I have self limiting believes, I do what does not work.
Did Elliot have anything more than frustration, for working a lot and getting nothing?
Cecil says ...
Don't blame this all on mental illness. Elliot had a serious lack of correct values. Or more accurately he internalized all of the emasculating and materialistic values of pop culture. He was a carnal soul in a selfish environment. He was racist and self loathing. He was evil. And I fear that there will be more of him in the future because we sit around and blame everyone but ourselves for the Darwinian society we enable. The blame is within all of us who enable lust, greed, envy and selfishness.
a former nice guy says ...
Did any of you actually read his manifesto? He claims to have had a good early childhood even titled it "A Blissful Beginning". Who knows if any of his manifesto is true or if he
made it all up. I still can't tell if he "snapped" or if he was broken from the beginning. Obviously he was a good liar able to fool the police when they came to check up on his erratic postings. It's a terrible tragedy for everyone involved that therapy was not able to help him and get him to get out of the destructive negative feedback loop. His brain was broken and no one was able to fix it in time.
StarMan says ...
I think this guy suffered a serious mental illness that had nothing to go with nice guy syndrome. As Dr Glover has said before, nice guy syndrome is a type of anxiety syndrome but its not a major mental psychosis. And nice guy syndrome can be treated by learning to change old behaviours and patterns whereas treating a mental psychosis that leads to murder would require serious medical treatment. Elliott Roger obviously needed a lot of treatment and his problems werent diagnosed soon enough for his victims.
StarMan says ...
I think this guy suffered a serious mental illness that had nothing to go with nice guy syndrome. As Dr Glover has said before, nice guy syndrome is a type of anxiety syndrome but its not a major mental psychosis. And nice guy syndrome can be treated by learning to change old behaviours and patterns whereas treating a mental psychosis that leads to murder would require serious medical treatment. Elliott Roger obviously needed a lot of treatment and his problems werent diagnosed soon enough for his victims.
StarMan says ...
I think this guy suffered a serious mental illness that had nothing to go with nice guy syndrome. As Dr Glover has said before, nice guy syndrome is a type of anxiety syndrome but its not a major mental psychosis. And nice guy syndrome can be treated by learning to change old behaviours and patterns whereas treating a mental psychosis that leads to murder would require serious medical treatment. Elliott Roger obviously needed a lot of treatment and his problems werent diagnosed soon enough for his victims.
Dinesh says ...
Wow!this was a long one to read. But Well worth it!
Igor says ...

I do believe that psychiatrists should be given more rights and power in society. Unfortunately, thanks to media and movies ( even good like "flying over the cookies nest") it's unlikely to happen.
Remora says ...
@tenderoni. .. I understand how you feel; however, the simple fact is that you may very well "have something in common with a mass murderer"!. I think Dr. glover hit it right on the mark to describe some of the NG traits of this obviously mentally ill young man. I am not sure where your NG journey has taken you but my journey with covert contracts saw me developing anger, disdain, for those on the other side of the unfulfilled contract. These negative emotions allowed me to slowly modify my behaviour in ways that were clearly unethical. My ethical breach did not result in physical harm or violence, but certainly crossed a line and people were hurt. I had the mental ability, when faced with the truth of my behaviour, to see that I had crossed a line and this was the beginning to my long road to recovery. I think Rodgers did not have this mental ability. We are all mentally challenged. It is part of the human condition. Rodgers was clearly unable to deal with his.
Insidious_Sid says ...
I really think the detractors of this article need to cut Dr. Glover some slack. I think it's obvious Dr. Glover is simply drawing parallels between the distorted thinking of a typical "nice guy" and the deranged thinking of Elliot Rodger. What nerd hasn't clenched his fists in anger and vowed to himself "I'll show THEM!". The difference is, "Nice guys" keep getting hurt and confusing the women they are getting into covert contracts with, but guys like Elliot Rodger kill people.

Sure, comparing Rodger to a typical "nice guy" is like comparing a Red Oak to a Dandelion because they're both organic and grow upward, but they do have one thing in common, which is very distorted thinking - a disconnection from reality. Both ultimately feel *entitled* to affection from another person - and whether this results in a killing spree or just awkward situations or unwanted attention, it's born of very similar dysfunction.
David says ...
I am sure that there are many Nice Guys out there who have no idea how self limiting their beliefs are and keep blaming others for how they feel. Not every mentally ill person has insight, and not every Nice Guy has insight.
Andrew says ...
I would compare Elliot to Anakin Skywalker. Elliot has an extremely unhealthy amount of hatred, even at an early age. I read some of his manifesto. Hatred coming from a myriad of sources from not being able to get a girlfriend to not being able integrate into a circle of popular kids at school. And that hatred became his master as he grows up. Much like how Anakin developed tons of anger and hatred to a point when he turns to the dark side and becomes a murderous Sith lord. And Elliot's anger and hate drives him to go a murder spree just like Anakin.
Andrew says ...
sometimes I wonder why did God, Evolution, give Beta Males a sex drive when in reality Beta Males never get laid.


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